Giving Up My Title: Why Writers Can't Have Too Many Sacred Cows

 

They are here — Sacred cows (Peltilehmät)
Photo by Sami Keinanan

Writing can often feel like a solitary project. For months and months you write in your cave--you create, you slave, you edit, you cut and paste and hit delete. You curse your uncooperative characters and then you fall in love with them. You put everything you've got into those pages.

 

So when it's finished, it feels like YOUR baby--a book you've lovingly created with your own twisted imagination. It's an amazing feeling.

But then the next step can determine how successful you're going to be at this whole writing thing. Because the next step is letting others in. To use Stephen King's analogy, you draft with the office door shut, then throw open the windows when you're done to let others in. What does that mean?

Get beta readers/critique partners AND actually listen to their feedback with an open mind.
I don't care how good of a writer you are. No one writes the best possible version of a book all on their own. Outside insight is a part of the process--unless the only person who is ever going to read the book is you. And please don't get beta readers just so you can stick your fingers in your ears when they come back--and instead of telling you how perfect everything is--they give you some tough feedback. It's your right to pick and choose which feedback you use and discard--but listen to every comment with an open mind first and look for WHY the person may have said that.

If you start querying and an agent/editor rejects you but gives you feedback, REALLY HEAR IT. 
 Agents/editors do this for a living. It is their job to figure out what works and what won't. If they took the time to give you personalized feedback, then this wasn't some offhanded comment. They are trying to help. It doesn't mean you HAVE to take the advice, but I would strongly consider what they say. I can't tell you how many times I see people tweet or blog about--well, I got a personalized rejection, but I don't really agree with what they said, so I'll just find an agent who agrees with me.

Don't get too attached to anything in or about your book. Have very few sacred cows.
We all have dealbreakers--parts of our story or characters or setting or whatever that feel like the heart of the book to us--that if we took that out or changed it, our story wouldn't be the story we want to tell. That's okay. That's your right as an author. BUT, choose those sacred cows wisely. Don't hold so tightly to everything that you can't see the bigger picture. My dealbreakers? I wouldn't have been willing to get rid of my happy ending or to make the book erotica and not erotic romance or to get rid of my dual timeline structure. That's it.

And why should you do these things?

Because once you get an agent and then a book deal--it becomes a team effort and a business. Your agent and editor have the same goals as you do--to make your book as awesome and successful as possible. But that often means you're going to have to make some changes that are hard.

When I first signed with Sara, she asked me to cut my very favorite scene in my book. I loved that scene. But when she explained why it didn't work--it totally made sense. So after a moment of mourning, I moved forward and did it. I was able to save my favorite parts of the scene and rework them into a new setting with new motivations. And you know what? It was so much better the new way! I would have never ever on my own cut that scene because I was too attached, too close to the book. And the book would have suffered for it.

Then when I got my edit letter last week from Kate, there was another scene I never would've thought of changing, but wow, it was a great suggestion. The change made the whole scene much stronger and upped the conflict with just a simple switch of action.

In addition to that and some other changes, she wanted me to change my title. *moment of silence to say goodbye to Exposure Therapy*

She wanted me to think of something that wasn't just sexy but that was romantic as well because Exposure Therapy doesn't speak to the romance part. Now at first, I was like--oh noes! I heart my title. But after a few minutes of thinking on it, I could see her point. The heart of my book is the romance and relationship and I need to make sure the reader feels that in the title. So, I've given her my suggestions and we'll see what happens, but it was just another example of how you can't be too attached to anything.

And I know most of you are probably saying--as long as I get an agent or editor, I don't care what they tell me, I'll do whatever they want me to! But when you're actually faced with it, it's a lot harder to do than you think. So prepare yourself now. Be open to feedback and think about what your sacred cows are. What are you willing to go to the mats for?

And remember, it is your right to say no to something. It is still your book. I didn't change everything that Sara suggested and she was fine with that when I explained my reasoning. But just make sure that you're willing to listen and consider everything before going with that knee jerk "no way!" reaction.

So what are some of your sacred cows? How would you feel if asked to change your title? And on the flipside, if someone does go after a sacred cow, would you have the guts to say no to representation or a book deal over it? 


Lessons from Queryfest

 


One of the most helpful workshops I attended at RWA was a two-hour event called Queryfest.  The premise was pretty simple. Queries were collected from the audience, then a panel of five agents listened to the queries read aloud by a moderator and gave feedback.

 

For the first few, they listened to the full query before commenting.  Then, about halfway through the workshop, they switched to a format where each agent would say "Stop" when in normal query reading, they would stop reading and reject the person.

I know, brutal right?  I have mad respect for those people who submitted their queries to the gauntlet.  But the experience was rather eye-opening. Even I started to say "stop" in my head when I would hit the point that I'd lost interest or got confused.

So here's what I learned:

Do not put your title, genre, and word count at the bottom of the query.

I always did this.  It was usually my last paragraph because I wanted my hook at the top.  But every agent on the panel agreed it was better upfront.  After hearing the queries aloud, this suddenly made total sense to me.  When you don't know the genre, reading the query can be confusing because you're constantly trying to place what kind of story it is.  Then sometimes you get in your head it's A and then the query drops the bomb that it's actually B or Z.  (There was actually a gasp from the crowd after one query that sounded like adult urban fantasy turned out to be YA.)  So first line should be something to the effect of "I am seeking representation for my 70,000 word historical romance, TITLE."

 

 

Don't bury your hook.

Okay, I know I just said you should have genre up at the top and I still mean that, but then you need to drop in your hook as soon as you start talking about your story.  And let it stand out.  Some people had a great hook and then they went on and on AND ON.  By the time the query was done, we'd all forgotten what the story was about and that sparkly hook.  So use your hook and then get to the guts of your summary, but keep it brief!

 

 

Agents like accurate comparisons.

I've heard mixed things on this topic, but all four agents on this panel liked the idea of the comparison pitch.  I.e. Glee meets True Blood.  Okay, so that story probably wouldn't work, but you get the idea.  The one query that did this had the agents requesting they send material on the spot--FROM  JUST ONE LINE. Seriously.

 

 

Know your genre.

Many of the queries seemed to be labeled with the wrong genre.  There were queries for romances that didn't talk anything about the primary relationship of the book.  There were also a few that tried to merge too many genres.  You can't pitch an urban fantasy, historical, inspirational, middle grade, cross-over paranormal romance.  The agents wants to know where you would be placed in the bookstore.

 

 

Voice is always vital.

Beyond hook, voice was what sold them on things.  So make sure you inject the voice of your prose into your query.

 

 

Agents don't care about your personal information if it doesn't relate to the book.

They don't care if you've been writing all your life, wrote your first book at age five in crayons, and that you love to water ski in your free time. Writing credentials aren't necessary for fiction, so don't fluff that paragraph if you don't have any.  However, if you DO have something relevant: contest wins, previous publications, write articles for a magazine, etc. then put that in there.  Also, this is where you can put in that you blog.

 

 

They assume overwritten query means overwritten manuscript.

Some of the queries had adjective soup, like the person was trying to SOUND like a writer.  Don't do this.  Many assume the sins of the query will be the same sins in your book.  (And not all of them jump to the sample pages to find out.)

 

 

They are human--everyone likes to be kissed up to a little.

Personalize those queries.  Let the agent know (in a very brief way) that you have researched them and consciously selected them--not that you're just throwing spaghetti on the wall to see what sticks.  Maybe you saw them speak at a conference, maybe you love their blog/twitter, maybe you admire their clients.  Be genuine and tell them why you are interested in their representation.

 

Alright, those are the main points I gleaned from the talk.  Hopefully, these tips helped.  We'll see if they helped me soon since I'm now actively querying my latest novel, lol.

So did any of these tips surprise you?  Have you incorporated these in your query? What other tips have you heard?  And am I the only one that has a HORRIBLE time trying to come up with those comparisons?

**Today's Theme Song**
"Ice, Ice Baby" - Vanilla Ice (I couldn't resist, sue me)
(player in sidebar, take a listen)


 

The Scoop from the Agent/Editor Panel

 


This past Saturday I was lucky enough to attend the Texas Two-Step Writer's Conference where Michael Hauge presented a workshop on how to use screenwriting techniques for your novel.  I'll have a little more information on that on Friday, but today I wanted to talk about the agent and editor panel they had at the beginning of the day.

 

These were the members of the panel:

  • Adam Wilson, Associate Editor, MIRA Books and Harlequin Teen
  • Holly Blanck, Assistant Editor, St. Martin's Press
  • Joy Azmitia, Literary Agent, Russell and Volkening
  • Becca Stumpf, Literary Agent, Prospect Agency

First, I do have to say that for those of you who haven't attended a writer's conference, they are one of the best ways to get in front of an actual decision maker and pitch.  I didn't pitch because my romance is category length and most don't represent those.  But, the agents/editors seemed very nice and approachable.  And contrary to popular belief, they are actual people.  Shocking news, I know.  :)

 

But anyway, during the panel I realized I truly do take blogging seriously.  Even when they were talking about things that didn't apply to me, I was taking notes to share with you guys, lol.

So here's what I found out...

  • Harlequin Teen is currently very heavy paranormal, so Adam is looking for contemporaries and historicals to balance their list out.
  • YA Historical is getting hot.
  • Holly is looking for gritty, edgy YA and also for a funny heroine who can support a series (adult or YA)
  • Vamps/Werewolves/Faeries/Angels/etc are still okay, but you must do something different with it (not weremooses one joked).  All of them agreed that they are getting bombarded with Twilight copycats still.
  • If you are writing paranormal/urban fantasy, don't get so involved in world-building that you bog down the story.  They say they've seen a lot of stories that read like a science textbook explaining all the rules and descriptions of the paranormal world.
  • VOICE, VOICE, VOICE - they said that you have to have plot (obviously) but that voice is what elevates the great from the good.
  • They are tired of seeing the guy character that every girl in the book is in love with.
  • Readers want more of the same but NOT copycats.  Michael Hauge reiterated this sentiment for movies.  Readers want something familiar with a different twist.  If your idea is completely out the box and off the wall, they said it can be harder to sell.  But if you're too close to something else like Twilight, readers will call you out on it.  So familiar, but unique.  Easy peasy, right?
  • They also said that your BIG TWIST on the original can't just be something like "oh, my werewolves can make themselves invisible."  Think of Richelle Mead's Vampire Academy series--she has vampires (old idea), and the characters are at special school (done all over the place), there are good vamps and bad vamps (done done done) but the MC is not a vampire, she has a very unique voice, and she is the opposite of the damsel in distress.


So that's the inside scoop.  Anything surprise you?   Make you happy?  Make you groan?  Let me know.
 
 
 
 
 

*Today's Theme Song*
"You Oughta Know" - Alanis Morissette
(player in sidebar--go ahead, take a listen)

 

Getting the Inside Scoop

 

I mentioned last week that I've organized my blog reading into folders on Google Reader so that I can get a better handle on my reading.  Well, when I tweeted that one of my folders is for industry blogs, a few people asked me which ones I follow.  So I thought today I would list some of those.  These are the blogs that help me stay on top of industry news and trends and also give killer advice for writers.  Hope you check them out!

 

Agents/Agencies

 

 

Publishers

 

 

Editors

 

 

Author

 

  • Stacia Kane (excellent writing related posts, great blog series on how to write love scenes as well)

 

Bloggers who Provide Industry Related Service

 

  • Query Tracker
  • Miss Snark's First Victim (has regular Secret Agent contests, where an agent crits fifty 250 word submissions on the site.  She gets big agents to do this and often the winner gets a request from the agent.   The March contest is about to start, so click over to check out how to submit your entry.)
  • The Intern
  • Public Query Slushpile (post your query for feedback)

 

Alright, those are my must reads, go forth and follow.  What are some of your must-read industry blogs?  Feel free to leave the link in the comments.

**Reminder: Tomorrow is the debut of the Fiction Groupie Crit Project! (I need a better name for it, not loving that one, let me know if you have a suggestion.)  So, make sure and stop by with your encouraging words and your red pens for our first brave author!**

 
 
 
 

**Today's Theme Song**
"I Will Follow You Into the Dark" - Death Cab For Cutie
(player in sidebar--go ahead, take a listen)

 

Must Give Good Blog

 



Most aspiring authors have heard that they should have an online presence.  I learned this last year when I went to the DFW Writer's Conference and everyone was abuzz about blogging, facebook, and twitter.  At the time I was on facebook and had a family blog, but nothing that said I was a writer.  The group of writers I was hanging out with at the conference also didn't have anything, so mild freak outs ensued.  Why were we so behind?  How did we not know this?  When are we supposed to write if we're supposed to do all of these other things too?  


I let the panic pass, then came home and started working on creating this here blog.  Great.  So I write about whatever I want and all is good in the world.  Well, not so much.  As I learned more and more, I realized you have to be vigilant about what you put out there on your blog.  Talking about rejections?  A bit risky if an agent stops by and sees no one else wanted your stuff.  Whining about the publishing industry?  Dangerous because you'll insult the very people you're trying to get "hired" by.  Badmouthing a book in a review?  Potentially burning bridges all over the place.


So is all that vigilance worth it?


After reading this article by Ellora's Cave editor Meghan Conrad over at Redlines and Deadlines, I would say the answer is a resounding yes.  I tweeted this article a few days ago, so for those of you that follow me, you may have already seen it (and for those of you not following me on twitter, why the heck not?  Go click that lovely birdy button in the upper right.)


Here is some of what Ms. Conrad says:

"I’ve rejected one or two good books because the author behaved so badly online, we decided we didn’t want to work with her. I’ve rejected a great many more books I was on the fence about after the author’s online presence ultimately convinced me the author probably wasn’t worth the effort."

I was surprised by that--not that they want to reject someone behaving badly.  I mean, peeps, learn to hide the crazy.  But by the fact that a weak online presence could be the deciding factor when they aren't sure about you.  Wow.  No pressure, right?  Although, I will note that Ellora's Cave is primarily an e-publisher so online presence probably holds more weight there than in a traditional house.


So what are they looking for?

"In general, we’re looking for signs that you’re relatively normal, literate, and reasonable, which is admittedly sort of difficult to quantify. A well-written blog is a great sign, or a Twitter account with hundreds of followers.  ...having followers is an indication you write well enough that people find your posts interesting and useful—points for you!"



Okay, I was alright with that one.  Followers are good, that makes sense.  But here's one point that scared me:

"Also worrying are blogs—or, worse, short stories or writing samples—with horrible grammar, punctuation, and spelling. No one expects you to be perfect, but I do tend to assume that the writing on your blog is a representative sample."



That one threw me for a bit of a loop because I'm a grammar nerd, but don't worry about it when blogging.  My blogs are written as streams of consciousness most times and in a conversational tone, which means lots of incomplete sentences and dashes and parentheses.  I do make sure that any excerpts I post are up to snuff in that area, but otherwise, I'm not really watching for it.  I could see if a lot of things are misspelled.  We do have spell check on here, but grammar?  Really?  Gah.  (See I just totally went all non-grammary again.)


So, be warned, fellow bloggers.  THEY, the they that we want to eventually work with, are watching you.  Make sure you want them to see what you're putting out there.  And if you do want to rant about the industry or do brutal book reviews, a pen name or some level of anonymity might be in order.  I highly recommend checking out the original article because she outlines additional things she doesn't like to see.


So how about you?  Do you have certain lines you don't cross in your blog?  Do you worry what agents/publishers/other authors will think if they stop by your blog?  Or, do you blog without worry because it's supposed to be a personal forum?

 

 
 

**Today's Theme Song**
"Best of You" - Foo Fighters
(player in sidebar--go ahead, take a listen)

 

What Makes Your Story Stand Out?

 

So I finally got around to reading The Hunger Games by Suzanne Collins.  I know, I know, I'm SO behind the rest of the world.  But I had a feeling it was going to be a book I couldn't put down, so I wanted to make sure I had the time to dedicate before I picked it up.

 

Well, I was right.  I couldn't put it down.  I read the whole thing over a day and a half.  I'm not going to review it because I know many of you have already read it, but I will say, it was a wonderful page turner.  And the premise was not like anything I've read recently, which got me to thinking about what makes a story stand out.

We all know that everything has been done before.  To come up with a completely original idea is next to impossible.  And not always preferable--if it hasn't been done before, there was probably a reason, lol.  And even The Hunger Games, which definitely feels unique, is standing on the shoulders of the dystopian novels that have come before it like 1984 and Farenheit 451.  It also reminded me of a short story I read in high school called The Most Dangerous Game by Richard Connell where the guy goes on a hunting trip and find out the "game" are humans.

So what is it about this take that makes it resonate with so many readers?  Why did the Vampire Academy series hook me so well even though I've read WAY WAY too many vampire books in my life?

With many of you writing  YA, this challenge becomes even more difficult.  You have to have teens, which means there is usually (not always) some kind of school involved, there is often first love, angst, casual voice, etc.  If you're going the paranormal route, there are only so many mythical creatures and psychic powers out there.  And romance is the same way--every story is boy meets girl (or boy meets boy in m/m) and they face some conflict, and then they end up happily ever after.  So why is YOUR story so different?

If you haven't already, take a look at Agent Janet Reid's yearly stats.  You have to be in the top 1% of everything that comes in her inbox to get her to consider you at all.  And that's just to get an agent, that's not a guarantee of getting sold.  So if a completely original idea is unattainable, what about your story is going to make you stand out and shine?  Take some time and really examine that.

Ask your beta readers when they are going through your pages, "What does the story/voice/character remind you of?"  It will inevitably remind them of something.  Dig into those answers to make sure you're not too much like whatever they remind the readers of.  And then ask them what is unique about your story, what makes it stand out.  Whatever that is--voice, characterization, heart-pounding pacing--play to that strength.  You can't be a one trick pony, but I think finding your strength gives you something to build on so that you can distinguish yourself from everyone else.

So what do you think is your strength?  What makes your story stand out from others like it?  Have you ever freaked out when you read a book that had a remarkably similar premise to what you were working on?  Did you change the story or keep going with it?
 


**Today's Theme Song**
"To Be Loved" - Papa Roach
(player in sidebar, take a listen)


 

Somehow, this makes me feel better...

 


Agent Kristin posted her stats for this year:  38,000 queries, 55 full requests, 6 new clients.  The numbers are daunting but somehow give me comfort.  This means .00016% of the queries got representation if my math is correct.  So if you get that rejection in the mail, remember it doesn't necessarily mean you suck (although you certainly could), it just means you weren't the lucky one in 6300 to get an offer.  I guess agents aren't lying when they say they have to absolutely fall in love to make an offer.

 

Also, thanks for all the well wishes from everyone.  My husband's knee surgery went well, so now it's just the journey of getting through the recovery phase.  And playing nurse with a rambunctious two-year old trying to "help" with everything is very interesting, lemme tell you.

Hope everyone has a great weekend!

 

**Today's Theme Song**
"#1 Crush" - Garbage

 
 

(player in sidebar if you'd like a listen)

 

People Read That? The About Me Section



As she usually does, Sierra Godfrey got me thinking with a post she did a while back on the About Me section of a website. She argued that bloggers and writers should really give this section some thought because it could make or break someone's interest in you or your site.

I honestly had never considered that. I figured no one really reads that anyway. And I absolutely hate writing about myself. Plus, if you write a big long paragraph about yourself, it pushes all the rest of the information further down on the page on your Blogger profile page and can move your blog link (the most important component) "below the fold"--meaning the person would have to scroll down to see it.

However, Sierra made some good points that made me question my stance. She said that if she goes to a site and can get no sense of who the person is, she's less inclined to stick around. Also, agents and editors you're querying could stop by (it's been known to happen). If they are truly interested in you, then they most likely will want to click on that About Me or profile section. And if that happened to me, what would they find out about me? That I'm a "mom, book junkie, and writer of romantic fiction." Wow, that's real enlightening. It can apply to just about any blogging writer out there.

So, I have given in and followed Sierra's advice. Using one of her examples from a published author's website, I used a fun history style format. And instead of filling up my blogger profile page, I made a separate page (and reserved the site for my name at the same time) then included the link in my About Me section called the TMI (too much information) file. So here's the link: The TMI File. Click over and let me know what you think. It's long, but well, it is supposed to be TMI. And then when you're done with that, go visit Sierra's post where she gives more detailed info about the About Me section.

So have you given your About Me section a lot of thought? Do you think agents/editors/readers will pay attention to that part? When you go to a new blogger's site, do you read that section? Does it sway your decision whether or not to follow them?



**Today's Theme Song**
"About A Girl" - Nirvana

(player in sidebar if you'd like a listen)


Face Off Friday: Prologues

 

It's that time of the week again: Face Off Friday. On today's agenda, the loved/dreaded/maligned prologue. The rumor is that writers love them and agents/publishers hate them. Some quotes from our favorite blogging agents:

 
99.9% of the time, the prologue is vague or doesn’t really give me a sense of the writing or the story that’s going to unfold. I skip them as a general rule. --Kristen Nelson, Pub Rants

It is 3-5 pages of introductory material that is written while the author is procrastinating from writing a more difficult section of the book. --Nathan Bransford's definition

Earlier in the week, I talked about the written and unwritten rules of writing I have discovered along the way. The one that many of you had pain over was the fact that prologues are frowned upon. So, I thought I would delve deeper into that topic today.

First, let's define a few types of "pre-chapters":

 
Prologue is a preface to the story, setting up the story, giving background information and other miscellaneous information. --wiki

A preface is an introduction to a book written by the author of the book. A preface generally covers the story of how the book came into being, or how the idea for the book was developed; this is often followed by thanks and acknowledgments to people who were helpful to the author during the time of writing. --wiki

A foreword is a (usually short) piece of writing often found at the beginning of a book or other piece of literature, before the introduction, and written by someone other than the author of the book. --wiki

Okay, so what most of us are dealing with is the first one, as the preface and foreward are typically used for non-fiction works. (However, Twilight breaks this rule--what's new--and uses the term preface for its prologue.)

Prologues are seen in all genres, but are particularly popular in fantasy/sci-fi and thriller/suspense. In fantasy, the prologue often provides information to help the reader understand the strange world that they are about to enter. In suspense, a prologue can contain the killer's point of view or one of his first victims points of view to ratchet up the tension instantly.

So those seem valid reasons to use one, right? What's the problem?

The problem can lie in the fact that the prologue is almost always a big chunk of backstory. And backstory can be dangerous--it risks boring the reader and makes your pace drag. Prologues can also be a sneaky way to hide a slow-moving first chapter. (I have NEVER used this device for this sordid purpose, *cough*.) The latter is how it's used in Twilight. We get a glimpse of the end action--an unnamed victim being stalked by a unknown predator--before we enter into chapter one where nothing much interesting happens for many pages.

However, prologues aren't always terrible. Hush, Hush which I just reviewed recently had a prologue. The brief pages showed a scene that explained what happened to one of the characters to make him the way he was. In this novel, I didn't mind the prologue and its purpose was clear. Could the story have been sprinkled in later? Perhaps, but the prologue was a big shining billboard that said--"hey this is about angels!" and the scene had tension and action, not just flowery language about some random legend.

So when is it a good idea to include a prologue and when do you need to cut it?


Prologue vs. No Prologue

For love of the prologue:

 
  • Fantasy/Sci-fi/Paranormal can be difficult to jump into without explaining a bit of the mythology/legend/world first.
  • Some of the greats used prologues
  • It can build tension early
  • You have a helluva twist coming later that you need to foreshadow
  • There is history that is vital to your story that must be introduced early
 

Nix the prologue because you are probably using it to cheat and do one of the following:
 
  • Set the mood/atmosphere because you failed to do so in the opening chapter
  • Info dump because you can't figure out where to sprinkle in the backstory
  • Create tension because your chapter one is slow and you can't bear to edit it again
  • Not trusting that your reader is smart enough to understand the world you created
  • Your story or fantasy world is overly complicated and you want to get the reader a school lesson on it first
 
Another thought:
 
"Writers hope to create suspense and interest by writing a prologue about the person who turns out to be the villain but without identifying that person by name or gender. Sorry, but in my opinion, that's a cheap parlor trick and your reader knows it. You're better off doing the hard work of creating suspense and tension with your hero and heroine."--author Carolyn Jewel
 

I have to admit that I am guilty of loving a prologue. The one I had for my first novel was unnecessary and I was using it as a cheat (cheap foreshadowing). I cut it a few months ago and saw that I never needed it. However, I do have some mythology that could be helpful in a prologue, so even though I haven't added it, I'm constantly tempted. *sits on hands for a moment to keep from typing one up*

However, I am a little afraid of including one based on the may negative opinions out there. Most agents/authors say it should be used as a last resort. I don't want to do anything to hurt my already slim chances of breaking into the world of publishing.

So what's your opinion? How do you feel about prologues in the stories your read? Do you have a prologue in any of your stories? Are you using it for the right reasons or are you worried it's a cheat? Do you think they should be used only as a last resort?

**Today's Theme Song**
"Your Cheatin' Heart" - Patsy Cline
(player in sidebar--go ahead, take a listen)